Java Vs Python for a Start-Up: Help us Decide.

Update(03/17/2015): I have grown up a bit since I wrote this post in 2012. Now I am of the firm opinion that such simplistic comparison of  Language A against Language B is quite counterproductive. This post should be read as how not to make a language choice. Now I only dislike Java.

Update(01/28/2013): Looks like this post is still getting attention. So let me bury some ghosts. We decided to go for Python but due to personal circumstances I wasn’t able to continue with GrabHalo. I have  built  a similar mobile back-end but in Golang(http://golang.org/) because it’s even simpler(in accessibility) than Python for quite a few software challenges. Python, I still love and continue to tinker with, on a regular basis. As primarily an Android Developer, I have to use Java at-least 35 hours/week. And I still hate it. It limits creativity by bogging down me in an ocean of verbosity. 

Disclaimer: I am pitching for Python.

Language Wars. Don’t you just love them? The adrenaline rush, the supreme feeling of clobbering your opponent on the head with quirky intelligent insights, the high of proving your point when the opposition is too slow with a come back. It’s like debating religion. It’s like MTV’s “Yo Momma”. It’s way better than discussing politics and sometimes even better than tasting a blueberry yogurt(the Burn Notice way).

Recently I am involved in an ongoing debate of: Java vs Python. I work in a startup GrabHalo and we are “the shit”(we got selected in Startup Chile ,July 2012). We are working on Location based Messaging. Needless to say, like all passionate debates, this thing is going nowhere. So here I am, taking the next logical step and opening up the fight to scale up to a proper battle. Just like the old days.

Java, I loved You.

I started my career as a Java Developer at a big IT MNC in Pune, India in 2009. During the mandatory 3 months Java Training, impressed my manager and was recommended by him to be deployed as a “proper” Java resource. “Proper”, since only a few who go through such trainings actually get to write code. In my batch of 40 people, I was the only one who went ahead to write code, rest of them were cast into Testing and Support.

On the job, I did well again and received an award or two for “Project Innovations”, which is their way of saying, you actually did the job you were supposed to do, here, have an appreciation certificate and a battery operated table lamp. Pardon the obvious lack of humility here, but I want to say is, once upon a time, I did love Java.

Ok, Let’s get to it. Why I loved Java ?

• It’s easy to understand. The documentation is extensive and the community is helpful.
• Coming from Assembly and C, it was a big relief not to manage your registers.
• I could get things work easily.
• Awesome IDE: Eclipse!

I loved Java because it was easy. But was it the right tool for a job? As an Electrical and Electronics Engineer, the significance of right tools has been beaten into me by numerous finger burns at the soldering station, days and nights lost due to the Millimeter with a lower precision or impedance, wasted PCB’s due to the incorrect diameter of the hole drilling bit. That list is huge and the only inference is: delays, delays and delays.

Why I started hating Java and loving Python?

I resigned from my job at the IT MNC to join an Android tablet startup, where among other things I learned Android Framework and Python. This was the first Python project I started with: Kivy(check it out, it’s really cool). Kivy allows you to create OpenGL UI widgets in Python while giving you the same performance as C(the OpenGL code is written in Cython). My first reaction vis-a-vis Java, after getting an average grip over Python was: I felt cheated.

Here I was working with a language which allowed me to precisely put my thoughts into code. Java too promised me that but now I did not feel that way. Following code snippet perfectly sums up my feelings, though it is a rather simplistic view.

Hello World in Java:

public class HelloWorld {

public static void main(String[] args) {
System.out.println(“Hello, World”);
}

}

Hello World in Python:

print “Hello, World”

What! I don’t need to jump all the hoops! The Kivy project got me thinking: “So what we can do is write code in Python because it is simpler, and if there is a heavy computational task, just offload it to C.”  Wait, that’s what I did while designing microcontroller boards too, if there was extra heat I put in a heat sink, if the analog switch generated current spikes, I replaced it with a transistor. The realisation was painful. I was a JavaLand citizen not long back. So I decided to look at some stats.

source

Java is faster and Python is third last from bottom. But, why didn’t  it feel that way. I couldn’t put my finger on the exact problem. My lack of formal Computer Science education did not make it any easier. I needed a good computer-sciency sounding term.

After a fairly intensive research, I found it: Expressive Power

“In computer science, the expressive power or expressiveness of a language is the breadth of ideas that can be represented and communicated in that language.”

Language	Level Relative to C
C	1
C++	2.5
Fortran	2
Java	2.5
Perl	6
Python	6
Smalltalk	6
MS Visual Basic	4.5

source

Python lets you express more using lesser words. On the other hand, Java has been called the Kingdom of  Nouns and the Culture of Bloat. Paul Graham says this about Java.

Now that was something I wanted to hear. Of Course. It all made sense now. Since I can express myself  faster, I had more time to make the code stabler and bug free. And in some cases, juice up the execution time by offloading the task to the King Pin(i.e C). I love Python now.

Java for Backend Development?

Now this question is giving me sleepless nights. I have the following reservations:

• Development: Java will take 2-3 times more lines of code to implement the business features.
• Deployment: Slower Deployment Cycles.(hence slower iteration).
• Concurrency: Can Java Web Servers(e.g Tomcat Apache) handle high level of concurrency? Answer: Debatable
• Node.js,Twisted : Can Java Web Servers give me the same features of an evented/non-blocking  I/O? Answer: Nope ( Update: I jumped the gun on this)

Python for Backend Development?
My reservations:

• Python is slow in execution.

I also found this gem: http://gaejava.appspot.com/. The tests show Python is slower in some and faster in other use cases,  but it is not too bad.

What are our business needs?

• We should be able to handle high number of api requests(using a No-Sql Database).
• We should be able to serve high number of push notifications.( This has a clear winner in Node.js).

Well, there you go. All advice and criticisms are welcome. Do not be gentle.

-Adnaan

Discuss on HN.

Update: Found similar thread on HN. It’s  2 years old but still relevant: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1378815